Eusebius Mackaiser was in conversation with the former finance minister, Pravin Gordhan on Tuesday.
They spoke about the state of South African politics, from state capture to issues with audit firm KPMG - and of course whether or not the money at PIC should be used to rescue state-owned entities.
Taking money from one entity and putting it in a state-owned entity where the board hasn't changed, management hasn't changed, the rot hasn't been fully exposed and the mistakes of the past haven't been fully corrected.... so how do you put money into entities that haven't been cleaned up? The first mission is to start cleaning up and they will become credible entities within their own right.— Pravin Gordhan, Former finance minister
At the end of the day if we do not tackle the core problem which is the governance, the management, operations, financial stability and the manner in which purchasing is happening in these entities, we are actually not solving the problem.— Pravin Gordhan, Former finance minister
Gordhan also spoke about how KPMG leadership in South Africa should understand the role they played in state capture.
This is not just an isolated technical matter... these particular misdemeanor on their part both in terms of the companies they audited but also in companies like Sars in terms of their involvement there, must be seen in the context of state capture phenomenon in South Africa and that they were willing partners.— Pravin Gordhan, Former finance minister
Political analyst Ralph Mathekga says as much as he agrees with Gordhan, the ANC needs to acknowledge that it has been complicit in state capture.
He says internationally actions have been taken to discipline companies like Bell Pottinger and KPMG, but in South Africa, it looks like one of those phenomena that get written off without people taking responsibility for what they did.
Look at the actions that are being taken outside South Africa toward Bell Pottinger and KPMG - but you don't see any action taken against those alleged perpetrators with South Africa.— Ralph Mathekga, Political and Policy Analyst
In order to capture the state you start with the ruling party and that's why the ANC cannot offer any solid recourse on how to deal with this matter. It is at the centre of the problem. It is part of the problem.— Ralph Mathekga, Political and Policy Analyst
To hear the rest of the interview, listen below: